Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-12-2013, 09:58 PM,
#1
V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
I have been a mechanic for a few years now, mostly mild repairs, custom jobs, wicked custom paint and artwork, etc. We have a family members bike come through the shop in the last 3 months for a Voyager trike kit and paint. End of the skinny is the paint is all done, the trike is on and its time to go home. Well the starter clutch happened to fail at my front door. After some diagnostic we determined the starter clutch needed replacement. Being in a time crunch I overnighted one to my door for install.

HERE IS WHERE THE WARNING WILL START

After following the shop service manual as well as cross referenced various write ups on the replacement of the starter clutch in relation to timing I was ready to remove / replace the starter clutch.

With the FLYWHEEL aligned to the inspection hole at RTDC ( rear top dead center ) the flywheel was pulled and all gears were marked according for reassembly. As it went back together in fairly easy fashion, the bike was re assembled and cranked up. It fired up without hesitation however it sounded slightly off at idle with a slight backfire from time to time. I rode it around the shop and the power delivery seemed normal. However the oddly persistent backpop out of the exhaust had me questioning the timing alignment.

So the engine cover was removed ,the gears were checked for the rear head and seemed at the time, at best, maybe 1 tooth off timing. Not wanting to chance it we removed the clutch cover, exhaust, etc as well to follow the timing from the front head all the way to the rear, step by step.

THIS IS WHERE IT ALL GOES SOUTH

The clutch side of the motor contains 3 timing marks for the front head. This according to various write ups as well as the manual.
The lower timing gear setup has 2 indents that are supposed to align every 12 rotations, along with the top timing gear hole to the top of the head. ALL 3 IN ALIGNMENT. Well this never happened. With the lower two indents aligned, the upper gear mark was 180 degrees out. No matter how many times you turned the motor over, always 180 degrees out.
At this point I want to verify it with the 4th timing mark in the equation, the Flywheel. According to the service manual, the "I" Mark on the flywheel is to be in the inspection hole at the TDC for the compression stroke. Mine however is about an inch off, or 40 degrees or so.

so at this point we have 2 indents that align for the front head, a 3rd mark that is 180 out, and a flywheel marking that says the timing is off.

Keep in mind, when you remove the flywheel, and rotate the engine, the FRONT CYLINDER HEAD TIMING WILL NEVER CHANGE. No gears , no chain, and no tensioner are removed. The engine without a flywheel operates as 3/4 of a motor with the cam gear and cams of the rear head independent of the rest.

So knowing mechanics and how motors operate... I decided to address the scenario as if no timing marks on the front head matter.

With the rear piston down, I set the timing marks on the rear head to a point that makes sense for RTDC. The bottom gear has 2 indent marks, a single indent, and a double indent. YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH THE DOUBLE. At this point the valves are both closed. Rotate the crankshaft via the clutch side until the woodruff key aligns with the camshaft gear and the upper cam gear. Install the flywheel.


NOW, we must note that mechanically the timing is 100% correct. However, the "T" RTDC mark on the flywheel is not in the inspection hole position. It is about an inch off. same as the front was.

So at this point the ONLY timing marks to be in the correct position are the back of the flywheel/woodruff key - the lower cam gear with DOUBLE INDENT, and the upper cam gear.

The motor was rotated by hand without issue and verified.

So before going any further a compression test was done.

The rear head is dead. 0 compression. The intake valve is already bent. It took a hit the second it fired up the first time.

SO my warning is this. Even though you follow the manual, you trust that someone, somewhere assembled your vehicle the same way as everyone elses, shit happens and things are not always as they seem. A gear is a gear, it doesnt care where it is, at what position it is in, or what its doing as long as it spins. What really f*cks ya is the little dot that is supposed to tell you what everything else is doing.

I have seen very few threads online with a front cam timing being 180 degrees off... unfortunately there was no resolution to the scenario. I am offering a resolution to some of these problems with this thread.

IF you removed only the flywheel, and did not touch any other chains, or cams, or gears... there is 100% chance that the front timing of your motor is EXACTLY as it was when you started. Dont trust the marks, trust the mechanics behind the marks. Had I done this the first time I wouldnt be pulling a motor and replacing a valve, something that in the end costs me dozens of hours of labor, hundereds of dollars, and my client lost time with his badass ride.

I will add some photos later.

Thanks
Reply
09-12-2013, 11:06 PM,
#2
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
thanks for the info, if I ever have to take mine apart, I will reference this thread, very occasionally my starter makes a bit of an ugly noise
Jmck
Two wheels moves me body and soul Cool
Reply
09-12-2013, 11:27 PM,
#3
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
(09-12-2013, 11:06 PM)jmck Wrote: thanks for the info, if I ever have to take mine apart, I will reference this thread, very occasionally my starter makes a bit of an ugly noise
It was how his began, occasionally it would sound like a mechanical BANG and hang up, then it would fire right up. Then one day it just spun. The starter spins, the clutch spins, and the flywheel does not.

The writeups do an "OK" job, the manual is garbage. I will add some photos for reference. I understand the mechanics of it quite well and it had me really on edge so I could only imagine a do it your self kind of guy going insane.
Reply
09-12-2013, 11:42 PM,
#4
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
the sound I get is like worn gears or a bit like a klaxon horn lol
Reply
09-19-2013, 01:29 AM,
#5
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
(09-12-2013, 09:58 PM)Over TWO Customs Wrote: This write up helped me get my 1100 back in time when I replaced my Starter Clutch....
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...tWdHoBuRFQ

I have been a mechanic for a few years now, mostly mild repairs, custom jobs, wicked custom paint and artwork, etc. We have a family members bike come through the shop in the last 3 months for a Voyager trike kit and paint. End of the skinny is the paint is all done, the trike is on and its time to go home. Well the starter clutch happened to fail at my front door. After some diagnostic we determined the starter clutch needed replacement. Being in a time crunch I overnighted one to my door for install.

HERE IS WHERE THE WARNING WILL START

After following the shop service manual as well as cross referenced various write ups on the replacement of the starter clutch in relation to timing I was ready to remove / replace the starter clutch.

With the FLYWHEEL aligned to the inspection hole at RTDC ( rear top dead center ) the flywheel was pulled and all gears were marked according for reassembly. As it went back together in fairly easy fashion, the bike was re assembled and cranked up. It fired up without hesitation however it sounded slightly off at idle with a slight backfire from time to time. I rode it around the shop and the power delivery seemed normal. However the oddly persistent backpop out of the exhaust had me questioning the timing alignment.

So the engine cover was removed ,the gears were checked for the rear head and seemed at the time, at best, maybe 1 tooth off timing. Not wanting to chance it we removed the clutch cover, exhaust, etc as well to follow the timing from the front head all the way to the rear, step by step.

THIS IS WHERE IT ALL GOES SOUTH

The clutch side of the motor contains 3 timing marks for the front head. This according to various write ups as well as the manual.
The lower timing gear setup has 2 indents that are supposed to align every 12 rotations, along with the top timing gear hole to the top of the head. ALL 3 IN ALIGNMENT. Well this never happened. With the lower two indents aligned, the upper gear mark was 180 degrees out. No matter how many times you turned the motor over, always 180 degrees out.
At this point I want to verify it with the 4th timing mark in the equation, the Flywheel. According to the service manual, the "I" Mark on the flywheel is to be in the inspection hole at the TDC for the compression stroke. Mine however is about an inch off, or 40 degrees or so.

so at this point we have 2 indents that align for the front head, a 3rd mark that is 180 out, and a flywheel marking that says the timing is off.

Keep in mind, when you remove the flywheel, and rotate the engine, the FRONT CYLINDER HEAD TIMING WILL NEVER CHANGE. No gears , no chain, and no tensioner are removed. The engine without a flywheel operates as 3/4 of a motor with the cam gear and cams of the rear head independent of the rest.

So knowing mechanics and how motors operate... I decided to address the scenario as if no timing marks on the front head matter.

With the rear piston down, I set the timing marks on the rear head to a point that makes sense for RTDC. The bottom gear has 2 indent marks, a single indent, and a double indent. YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH THE DOUBLE. At this point the valves are both closed. Rotate the crankshaft via the clutch side until the woodruff key aligns with the camshaft gear and the upper cam gear. Install the flywheel.


NOW, we must note that mechanically the timing is 100% correct. However, the "T" RTDC mark on the flywheel is not in the inspection hole position. It is about an inch off. same as the front was.

So at this point the ONLY timing marks to be in the correct position are the back of the flywheel/woodruff key - the lower cam gear with DOUBLE INDENT, and the upper cam gear.

The motor was rotated by hand without issue and verified.

So before going any further a compression test was done.

The rear head is dead. 0 compression. The intake valve is already bent. It took a hit the second it fired up the first time.

SO my warning is this. Even though you follow the manual, you trust that someone, somewhere assembled your vehicle the same way as everyone elses, shit happens and things are not always as they seem. A gear is a gear, it doesnt care where it is, at what position it is in, or what its doing as long as it spins. What really f*cks ya is the little dot that is supposed to tell you what everything else is doing.

I have seen very few threads online with a front cam timing being 180 degrees off... unfortunately there was no resolution to the scenario. I am offering a resolution to some of these problems with this thread.

IF you removed only the flywheel, and did not touch any other chains, or cams, or gears... there is 100% chance that the front timing of your motor is EXACTLY as it was when you started. Dont trust the marks, trust the mechanics behind the marks. Had I done this the first time I wouldnt be pulling a motor and replacing a valve, something that in the end costs me dozens of hours of labor, hundereds of dollars, and my client lost time with his badass ride.

I will add some photos later.

Thanks
Reply
09-19-2013, 08:45 AM,
#6
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
(09-19-2013, 01:29 AM)oldride Wrote: I viewed this writeup and its very accurate. However, the engine in question did not align the timing marks as shows when at TDC cylinder 1 nor did the flywheel timing marks align in the inspection cover.
(09-12-2013, 09:58 PM)Over TWO Customs Wrote: This write up helped me get my 1100 back in time when I replaced my Starter Clutch....
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...tWdHoBuRFQ
Reply
06-08-2014, 06:23 PM,
#7
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
Hi,

I live in the Netherlands and have a BT1100 and are messing big time with the timing after changing the starter clutch.
Since the Bulldog has the exact same engine as the v-star I was very glad to find this threat.

But... still some points are unclear to me.

Can anyone give me a step by step instructions on how to align all the markings, before placing the clutch back?

When the rear cylinder is at TDC of the compression stroke and the CAM marking aligns, is it so that when rotating the crank 270 degrees clockwise, the front cylinder should be at TDC of the compression stroke?

Thanks in advance.
Reply
05-28-2015, 01:21 AM,
#8
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
This whole scenario is unbelievable. This is exactly the issue I was having and it was driving me nuts. The whole reason I had to take the flywheel off is that a previous owner messed up the install. I am a little concerned about the possibility of a bent valve at this point now that I have gone through this process. The bike did run, but I had excessive backfiring and just never felt right. I drove the bike for about 3 or 4 years like that, so I hope that there is nothing bent. Does anybody know why there are camshaft gears installed 180 degrees off?

Alberta Dave
2000 VStar 1100 Classic
(09-12-2013, 09:58 PM)Over TWO Customs Wrote: I have been a mechanic for a few years now, mostly mild repairs, custom jobs, wicked custom paint and artwork, etc. We have a family members bike come through the shop in the last 3 months for a Voyager trike kit and paint. End of the skinny is the paint is all done, the trike is on and its time to go home. Well the starter clutch happened to fail at my front door. After some diagnostic we determined the starter clutch needed replacement. Being in a time crunch I overnighted one to my door for install.

HERE IS WHERE THE WARNING WILL START

After following the shop service manual as well as cross referenced various write ups on the replacement of the starter clutch in relation to timing I was ready to remove / replace the starter clutch.

With the FLYWHEEL aligned to the inspection hole at RTDC ( rear top dead center ) the flywheel was pulled and all gears were marked according for reassembly. As it went back together in fairly easy fashion, the bike was re assembled and cranked up. It fired up without hesitation however it sounded slightly off at idle with a slight backfire from time to time. I rode it around the shop and the power delivery seemed normal. However the oddly persistent backpop out of the exhaust had me questioning the timing alignment.

So the engine cover was removed ,the gears were checked for the rear head and seemed at the time, at best, maybe 1 tooth off timing. Not wanting to chance it we removed the clutch cover, exhaust, etc as well to follow the timing from the front head all the way to the rear, step by step.

THIS IS WHERE IT ALL GOES SOUTH

The clutch side of the motor contains 3 timing marks for the front head. This according to various write ups as well as the manual.
The lower timing gear setup has 2 indents that are supposed to align every 12 rotations, along with the top timing gear hole to the top of the head. ALL 3 IN ALIGNMENT. Well this never happened. With the lower two indents aligned, the upper gear mark was 180 degrees out. No matter how many times you turned the motor over, always 180 degrees out.
At this point I want to verify it with the 4th timing mark in the equation, the Flywheel. According to the service manual, the "I" Mark on the flywheel is to be in the inspection hole at the TDC for the compression stroke. Mine however is about an inch off, or 40 degrees or so.

so at this point we have 2 indents that align for the front head, a 3rd mark that is 180 out, and a flywheel marking that says the timing is off.

Keep in mind, when you remove the flywheel, and rotate the engine, the FRONT CYLINDER HEAD TIMING WILL NEVER CHANGE. No gears , no chain, and no tensioner are removed. The engine without a flywheel operates as 3/4 of a motor with the cam gear and cams of the rear head independent of the rest.

So knowing mechanics and how motors operate... I decided to address the scenario as if no timing marks on the front head matter.

With the rear piston down, I set the timing marks on the rear head to a point that makes sense for RTDC. The bottom gear has 2 indent marks, a single indent, and a double indent. YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH THE DOUBLE. At this point the valves are both closed. Rotate the crankshaft via the clutch side until the woodruff key aligns with the camshaft gear and the upper cam gear. Install the flywheel.


NOW, we must note that mechanically the timing is 100% correct. However, the "T" RTDC mark on the flywheel is not in the inspection hole position. It is about an inch off. same as the front was.

So at this point the ONLY timing marks to be in the correct position are the back of the flywheel/woodruff key - the lower cam gear with DOUBLE INDENT, and the upper cam gear.

The motor was rotated by hand without issue and verified.

So before going any further a compression test was done.

The rear head is dead. 0 compression. The intake valve is already bent. It took a hit the second it fired up the first time.

SO my warning is this. Even though you follow the manual, you trust that someone, somewhere assembled your vehicle the same way as everyone elses, shit happens and things are not always as they seem. A gear is a gear, it doesnt care where it is, at what position it is in, or what its doing as long as it spins. What really f*cks ya is the little dot that is supposed to tell you what everything else is doing.

I have seen very few threads online with a front cam timing being 180 degrees off... unfortunately there was no resolution to the scenario. I am offering a resolution to some of these problems with this thread.

IF you removed only the flywheel, and did not touch any other chains, or cams, or gears... there is 100% chance that the front timing of your motor is EXACTLY as it was when you started. Dont trust the marks, trust the mechanics behind the marks. Had I done this the first time I wouldnt be pulling a motor and replacing a valve, something that in the end costs me dozens of hours of labor, hundereds of dollars, and my client lost time with his badass ride.

I will add some photos later.

Thanks
Reply
06-01-2015, 01:03 AM,
#9
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
I took my 1100 apart to do a starter clutch. I will know tomorrow if I did this right. Had no oil and batt needs charging. Rotated Engine by hand with no apparent interference. The info was priceless as the bike sat in the garage for 3 weeks disassembled as I was baffled! It took me 3 hrs today to put it all together. Thanks and a hat tip to you!
Reply
06-01-2015, 08:23 AM, (This post was last modified: 06-01-2015, 08:25 AM by pauli466.)
#10
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
(06-01-2015, 01:03 AM)Eric G Wrote: I took my 1100 apart to do a starter clutch. I will know tomorrow if I did this right. Had no oil and batt needs charging. Rotated Engine by hand with no apparent interference. The info was priceless as the bike sat in the garage for 3 weeks disassembled as I was baffled! It took me 3 hrs today to put it all together. Thanks and a hat tip to you!
if you turn these engines backwards or counter clockwise it is possible to jump the timing gears the manual say to only turn the motor clockwise in the direction of rotation so if timing marks miss the pointers don't turn the engine backwards to line em up. go around again.
Reply
05-27-2019, 05:53 PM,
#11
RE: V STAR 1100 CUSTOM TIMING WARNING
Nice write up. This actually has me thinking about something related.
Reply
Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Essentra issues second profit warning as Asian tobacco woes deepen cigspriced 0 72 07-28-2020, 06:20 AM
Last Post: cigspriced
  V-star 650 2007 High revs Happywheels 0 534 09-16-2019, 03:31 PM
Last Post: Happywheels
  2009 V-star engine trouble kelly christopher 0 916 09-02-2019, 06:44 AM
Last Post: kelly christopher
  Timing? Tony H. 1 2,238 05-27-2019, 05:41 PM
Last Post: jilbake
  vstar 1100 starter clutch replacement went well, until... cngr96 3 2,013 05-10-2019, 01:22 PM
Last Post: Awesome Vstar1100
  Please help name this part on a V-Star 650 Custom wiiNinja 2 1,174 03-03-2019, 10:24 AM
Last Post: Awesome Vstar1100
  2006 1100 V-Star Starter Problem JMON92 2 1,879 01-31-2019, 03:08 PM
Last Post: JMON92
  Ignition timing (possible) issue? f_to_the_k 0 936 01-31-2019, 02:47 AM
Last Post: f_to_the_k
  02 650 custom problems Unwanted parts 3 4,247 06-07-2017, 07:34 PM
Last Post: Unwanted parts
  2005 650 Custom wont turn over wont push start!! Ben2463 0 3,740 02-26-2017, 09:37 PM
Last Post: Ben2463

Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)